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View Full Version : Front Mounted Intercooler for Audi S3



eddyg
July 27th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Hi,

As those on audi-sport.net would have noticed I got my FMIC installed last week by Derek. Wow, it really did make a difference, I'm finding that I'm no longer getting any heat soak at all. First gear is now really aggressive, as in the traction control cuts in if you give it some!

And now for the pics, which is why I didn't post here first, needed a place to host them.

http://www.employees.org/~eddyg/197_9786.JPG
http://www.employees.org/~eddyg/197_9787.JPG
http://www.employees.org/~eddyg/197_9789.JPG
http://www.employees.org/~eddyg/197_9790.JPG
http://www.employees.org/~eddyg/197_9792.JPG

Cheers,

Edward.

Boomtownmouse
July 27th, 2004, 10:19 PM
Nice very subtle.

EZZY
July 27th, 2004, 10:23 PM
that looks great. and im sure its worth the $$$$. well done!
i think thats the same setup as in rai's TTQ.

July 27th, 2004, 11:37 PM
Don't be decieved by looks, sure it looks the part but half of it is covered by the bumper what good is that? No way to efficiently cool the air. Why do they make it so tall? You could certainly reduce the cost of this kit by reducing the core size and you won't hurt efficiency and most likely claim back some pressure drop too.

Cut out a hole where the rego plate is and watch the efficiency go up. I am jokin of course but there is truth in jest! Maybe a new bumper is required that has a bigger opening to allow air to contact the top half of the IC.

Sorry for being a stick in the mud but there needs to be some clarity on this issue. Too many people are focused on how it looks rather than how well its engineered.

Rai
July 28th, 2004, 01:19 AM
yep same FMIC as mine - OCT

we did some post FMIC intake temp monitoring after the install and the unit is around the 93% efficiency mark which is pretty damn good (and mirrors the results some of the audiwolrd tt guys have got using realtime IC in/out temp sensors). while this is on the TT and i think the opening in the front spoiler is larger than the S3.... the fact is there is also more surface area than the stock setup which makes it a more effective heat sink. I've also found it doesn't take much air moving over it to effect a drop in intake temps.

jamesa
July 28th, 2004, 02:54 AM
looks great :D

do you mind me asking, how much was it all up?

-- james

eddyg
July 28th, 2004, 09:28 AM
looks great :D

do you mind me asking, how much was it all up?

-- james

AU$2,800 not cheap, but I needed to get rid of my heat soak, which was really annoying me.

Aussie Audi Guy
July 28th, 2004, 09:34 AM
Looking Good Ed,

If you painted it black, it would be invisible!

itaplikeabiatch
July 28th, 2004, 11:27 PM
ok please properly define the symptoms of heat soak.
do u only get this during the hotter months? or all year around? or after a long drive?
does this actually increase power output or just power delivery.
would the price be the same for an rs4?
will

Lima
July 29th, 2004, 10:06 AM
I guess by having the entire FMIC exposed to clean incoming air it could be more efficient. However the important thing to remember is that this mod has helped achieve the owner's desire to improve the effect of the IC in the first place and remove heat soak. If he's happy then...

a3page
July 29th, 2004, 10:24 AM
it funny how an s3 would claim to have heat soak on the IC when compared to cars like my celica gt4 which is top mount IC. during summer time or just any warm day sitting in the traffice with a TMIC would get you car no where.

after i got my a3t, i found that it has no heat soak at all! but i've experience TMIC large core that happends to have too much pressure drop that the throttle responds is slower.

i reckon FMIC is really needed if you run significant about of boost, other than that, a simple water sprayer on the a3t, s3 IC could do that job.

but yet again i haven't explored the engineer of audi a3t's cooling system to justify what i said.

eddyg
July 29th, 2004, 11:23 AM
ok please properly define the symptoms of heat soak.
do u only get this during the hotter months? or all year around? or after a long drive?
does this actually increase power output or just power delivery.
would the price be the same for an rs4?
will

Hi,

I felt that the performance of the car was very variable, I couldn't pin down exactly what the factors were, weather and how long at idle appeared to be factors. This was annoying me, and so I had a boost gauge fitted to see if my seat of the pants feeling was real. It turned out that I was not making things up, I was in fact only developing part boost on occasions, especially through first gear.

The most obvious explanation was heat soak in the intercoolers, and so I thought it was worth a gamble to try to resolve the issue. And it has appeared to have paid off.

Now, bear in mind that I only had one day to experience the difference before the car was shipped off to NZ. However I've never had it pull so strong in first in general driving before. Second was the same as usual, ~20-22psi boost, can't speak for third, it was all city driving.

Cheers,

Edward

eddyg
July 29th, 2004, 11:28 AM
Don't be decieved by looks, sure it looks the part but half of it is covered by the bumper what good is that? No way to efficiently cool the air. Why do they make it so tall? You could certainly reduce the cost of this kit by reducing the core size and you won't hurt efficiency and most likely claim back some pressure drop too.


True, it appears to be engineered for the TTQ rather than S3, then they figured that it should work on the S3 as well.

Still, it works well on the S3 all the same :)

Cheers, Edward.

July 29th, 2004, 11:32 AM
Edward, I am sure you are finding the new IC an improvement but what makes you think that heatsoak is affecting boost. From my understanding of intercooled engines turbo develops boost independently of the IC. The boost signal you read is not affected by the heatsoak condition of the IC.

You are reading boost off a vac line so I'd have to disagree with your reasoning behind the variation in boost before and after the new IC. I think you may have other syptoms which are affecting the boost signal you are seeing. I guess time will tell once you have more Km's on the clock.

July 29th, 2004, 11:32 AM
Edward, I am sure you are finding the new IC an improvement but what makes you think that heatsoak is affecting boost. From my understanding of intercooled engines turbo develops boost independently of the IC. The boost signal you read is not affected by the heatsoak condition of the IC.

You are reading boost off a vac line so I'd have to disagree with your reasoning behind the variation in boost before and after the new IC. I think you may have other syptoms which are affecting the boost signal you are seeing. I guess time will tell once you have more Km's on the clock.

a3page
July 29th, 2004, 06:35 PM
easy, u must have an IC leak then, engine is not seeing the boost, but turbo is pumping out the correct amount.

had an accident in your s3 before? connection on your IC piping?

Turbomike61
July 29th, 2004, 07:23 PM
The reasons for low boost in low gears with heat soak is actually quite basic.

With heat soak, the engine makes less power at a given boost level due to less dense air (less oxygen). In making less power it makes less exhaust gas pressure, and so, doesn't drive the turbo as hard. You simply reach maximum revs before maximum boost. If you could increase the load so the engine speed doesn't increase as quickly, the turbo has more time to spool up, resulting in higher boost levels.

Taller gearing increases load.

More efficient intercooling solves the problem in low gear. :D

July 29th, 2004, 07:39 PM
turbomike, your explanation is true for the symptom of hotter air makes less power but not the answer to boost its self. I think thats what Vdub is referring to in his reply regarding lower boost levels are not a factor of heat soak I don't think he was referring to lower power in which case you are correct.

Turbomike61
July 29th, 2004, 11:04 PM
Read it carefully and think about it.

Heat soak DOES cause reduced boost in lower gears. It can easily be checked on a dyno by blowing air over dry ice and onto the intercooler.

daninsyd
July 30th, 2004, 08:36 PM
yo edd, I got the same FMIC and I couldn't be happier, the performance is there all day, unlike previously when I only had the best performance at night when the air was cold. Acceleration has improved through all gears as well, it revs smoother and it's just so much better all-round. So despite all the speculation I don't care, it's just what this little black car needed. :mrgreen:

ea2001
July 30th, 2004, 09:43 PM
All the speculation is just that, speculation. I have logs that show the improvements in a number of areas so unless you have proof about inefficiency, waste of time, all show or whateveer else keep the speculation to yourself and accept that it is a big improvement on stock.
Eddy and Dan have experienced the same results.
The remarks about the part of the intercooler behind the bar being useless and that heatsoak does not affect the boost provided are just comical. Do you have any proof for your comments?
I won't be posting any logged data. If you want to see it drop in anytime. :)

July 30th, 2004, 10:45 PM
I never said it wouldn't work I was just talking about the efficiency of the IC with so much of it behind the bumper. As far as boost is concerned I'm still interested in discussing it and I'll be a little more specific, ie, the boost being generated by the turbo in reference to gaining boost by installing a different IC. I'm not comparing the efficiency of the fmic against the smic. I was simply talking about the fmic on its own.
There is no need to obtuse about it. Its a discussion or is that how you talk to people face to face too. I know that's not the case because we have chatted on a few occassions. Gee Derek cut me some slack!

Hear is a nice job and what I was getting at with full contact the bumper has been totally reworked to allow air for the ic. Looks great but may not be for everyone.

http://www.pifiu.com/vortex/uploads/052004/eurojet200.jpg

ea2001
July 30th, 2004, 11:24 PM
Wal I think the point being made is that thre FMIC does not make the turbo generate more boost, as we all understand the turbo doesn't care or know if the car has an intercooler or not, rather the FMIC stops the loss of air density hence boost that the engine receives.
Its really semantics in this thread that causes the difference of opinion.
As you say Wal we have spoken and you certainly seem different on the net. It must bring out the worst in us. :)
All in all the FMIC on the S3/TT does make a good improvement so thats the main thing.

Rocketship
July 31st, 2004, 12:32 PM
I've had a FMIC for years now and the difference is tremendous! Probably best mod after a chip as far as BFYB's go. For under $2k fitted (if no new bar needed) it is a no brainer. Not only does the car run harder but as daninsyd said

the performance is there all day, unlike previously when I only had the best performance at night when the air was cold. Acceleration has improved through all gears as well, it revs smoother and it's just so much better all-round. So despite all the speculation I don't care, it's just what this little black car needed.
The performance of the car even on hot days is much more even ..... although there is nothing like crisp cool air for a turbo :mrgreen:

When I had mine fitted, I asked about a bigger one but I was told by a number of people I was limited to the size of the opening in the bar as I would get hot spots which would affect overall efficiency/performance if any parts of it was hidden behind the bar. Being a nuff-nuff on all things mechanical I just went with the experts :?
As they are easy to have made to your own specs. then I would think any prospective modders would get it custom made .... probably cheaper too!
Anyway, it probably doesn't matter in the long run whether one set up is better than another as they will all give a great improvement over a stock IC. 8)

July 31st, 2004, 01:55 PM
Wal I think the point being made is that thre FMIC does not make the turbo generate more boost, as we all understand the turbo doesn't care or know if the car has an intercooler or not

Exactly what I was on about. I should of been very specific with my original post because I get flamed for my opinion.

Here's my fmic sitting in the workshop waiting for the install.

http://www.amtuning.com.au/photos/passatfmic.JPG

Rocketship
July 31st, 2004, 02:25 PM
Nice.
I think I will probably go for one of the newer upgraded cores like yours Wal when I save up some pennies :D
Apparently there are some big differences in performance!

Oh well, another item added to the wish list :shock:

AudiFan
August 2nd, 2004, 10:28 AM
Wal keep persisting mate, since you often bring something up that I am also wanting to ask. As rocketship stated I to am a bit of a nuff nuff re car tech stuff so I am always looking to learn from others with more knowledge (not 'internet' experts though). So intially when I saw the pics I thought is that really going to be that good with some of it blocked by the font bar? I did not bring it up cos I didn't want to get into something I know little about, that and the fact I also don't own a fire suit...

BTW, the written word is so open to different interpretation and perception - this can obviously lead to conflict in my experience.

Look forward to pics of your fmic fitted up.

AudiFan
August 2nd, 2004, 10:33 AM
Wal keep persisting mate, since you often bring something up that I am also wanting to ask. As rocketship stated I to am a bit of a nuff nuff re car tech stuff so I am always looking to learn from others with more knowledge (not 'internet' experts though). So intially when I saw the pics I thought is that really going to be that good with some of it blocked by the font bar? I did not bring it up cos I didn't want to get into something I know little about, that and the fact I also don't own a fire suit...

BTW, the written word is so open to different interpretation and perception - this can obviously lead to conflict in my experience.

Look forward to pics of your fmic fitted up.

a3page
August 2nd, 2004, 12:52 PM
rocketship,

what car do u have? is you existing IC custom made? where in melbourne did you do it? sorry for the question, and i promise i will come to the next meet! :)

Rocketship
August 2nd, 2004, 06:28 PM
Hey a3page,

I have a '97 A4TQ and I had my FMIC custom made over 4 years ago now :shock: - this was when the only ones avail. where from the US and cost heaps.
I paid about $1700 fitted and have had the pipework redone since, down from 3" to 2 3/4". If I did it again would probably go 2 1/2".
I went thru Speed Technology in Mitcham who did a good job but would recommend you talk to Lucas & Louie from Euroclass in Richmond as they have the most experience in doing this mod on Audi's in particular.
Lucas uses the new high efficiency IC's and I'm sure he would look after you if you want one for your machine.
They are fantastic in summer especially but talk to Josh (Magic) about his and he will give it a huge thumbs up I'm sure.

Next meet is Thursday 12th August :big_wink:

Boomtownmouse
August 2nd, 2004, 09:28 PM
I dont know anything about intercoolers. What is the advantage of the smaller pipe?

Rocketship
August 3rd, 2004, 11:25 AM
When I first put in the 3" piping, it was explained to me by a mechanic that works on turbos etc. that the least resistance the better.... i.e. size of pipework, length of it, how many bends and how severe the bends etc.
Lucas was running a smaller pipe with more power and wasn't having any problems but thinking my expert knew more than him I put in the 3". Then when I had the pipework redone I went down a size to 2 3/4" still thinking Lucas can't be right. I hate it when he is always right :evil:
Anyway, I believe their is a formula that determines flow/pressure in that for every bend you might as well have added a metre of pipework etc etc. So in theory the bigger the pipe the better the flow .... which in my case doesn't seem to equate!
Sorry for my poor understanding, maybe someone else can explain it better and correctly :?
The upshot of all this and my other dealings with Lucas, love him or hate him, he is just about always right :evil: and I don't try and second guess him anymore!

a3page
August 3rd, 2004, 03:13 PM
thanks rocket! i'll check out the details for thursday.

the reason for larger piping maybe the pressure drop in the ic. i can't say for audi cars, but in gt4, if your IC core is too thick or your piping is too large in dia. it requires more pressure to fill up those volume. thus resulting in slower throttle response, but great kick at the end.

i'm just wondering if there are any workshop/tuners have a jigged up template of the pipe works for audi turbo's.

:?

Rocketship
August 3rd, 2004, 04:46 PM
I'm not sure if Euroclass has done one for an A3 but they have done plenty for A4's.
Talk to Louie, he should be there on the 12th.

eddyg
September 8th, 2004, 02:33 PM
Hi,

Well I finally got my car cleared through customs and driving in Christchurch, NZ after moving it from Sydney. And the FMIC is still making a huge improvement to torque, in fact it is if it is a different car.

In the past I could drive with traction control enabled and it would only kick in on an aggressive corner under power or going over a bump.

Now, whenever I get to about 4000rpm in first and am giving it some the traction control light comes on, power drops off sharply, and then comes on really hard as the traction control switches off.

Basically if I want to drive fast I now need to turn the traction control off.

I can very much recommend this mod to all S3 owners out there.. easily the biggest change in performance of the car after the chip.

As far as mods go, I'd recommend the following in this order:

1) Chip
2) FMIC
3) Exhaust
4) Samco intake pipe
5) Higher flow air filter
6) Brake pads
7) Full brake package

Note. 6 & 7 are higher if doing track days.

Cheers,

Edward.

Chux
September 8th, 2004, 03:16 PM
G'day Eddy, good to see you're back ... well .. not back in Aus .. but back here on the forums :-)

i'm looking at getting a FMIC soon, my car suffers really badly from the heat, can't wait to see how it goes with one fitted.

Just need to find one that looks factory up top and can't be noticed too easily from the front.

jamesa
September 8th, 2004, 04:28 PM
i'm looking at getting a FMIC soon, my car suffers really badly from the heat, can't wait to see how it goes with one fitted.

Just need to find one that looks factory up top and can't be noticed too easily from the front.

That's a good point. There aren't any problems with painting the things are there i.e. just paint it black, you'd never even know it was there...

-- james

Chux
September 8th, 2004, 05:54 PM
This was brought up in a thread once before and Rai suggested anodising it black.

that's probably what i will do when i get mine.

eddyg
September 8th, 2004, 06:45 PM
This was brought up in a thread once before and Rai suggested anodising it black.

that's probably what i will do when i get mine.

Looks fine as it is though :) It is still rather subtle, without being invisible, well I think so anyway.

Cheers, Edward.

a3page
September 9th, 2004, 02:55 AM
G'day Eddy, good to see you're back ... well .. not back in Aus .. but back here on the forums :-)

i'm looking at getting a FMIC soon, my car suffers really badly from the heat, can't wait to see how it goes with one fitted.

Just need to find one that looks factory up top and can't be noticed too easily from the front.

chux, if you ever seen QSZ former a3t, (which is mine now) it has a AZK front spoiler on, and that is still at the black plastic form not painted. it looks very factory and it has a nice front opening to suit a decent size core in it.
and also i've actually seen an a3t in melboune, red as well with body kit, having the FMIC sitting behind a mildly sized hexogonal grill that is black, and the silver colour of the IC just barely showing which is a damn tease.
i reckon using black grill and keeping the IC as it is will both provide performance and look without the 'mod-up' look.

my 2c

regards