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Thread: Audi V8-Into-B5 A4 - The Facts.

  1. #1
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    Default Audi V8-Into-B5 A4 - The Facts.

    G'day guys,

    I'm writing up a "how to" on installing an Audi V8 into the B5 chassis, on the request of a couple of members on here. I'll try to keep it simple, obviously if there are any issues you're not clear with, please feel free to ask questions on here.

    This write-up will cover costs, options and bugs you may encounter in the course of the install.

    As many will already know, the B5 came from the factory with an array of petrol engines -

    1,6L 8V.
    1,8L 20V.
    1,8L 20V turbo.
    2,4L 30V.
    2,6L 12V.
    2,7L Biturbo 30V.
    2,8L 12V.
    2,8L 30V.

    Worth noting, North America and canada got even less options -

    1,8 20V turbo.
    2,7 Biturbo 30V.
    2,8 12V.
    2,8 30V.

    There were no diesel options in Canada and North America.

    Whilst the 1,8T and 2,7T engines are very flexible, in terms of extracting more power - there are 1,8T's in North America that have exceeded the 600hp mark, the same can't be sait about the other non-turbo engines, from the 1,6, 1,8 20V and V6 12 / 30V models.

    Traditionally, V6 versions have had to rely on the more basic modifications - exhaust, chip, filter etc. That's pretty much where it ends, as far as bolt-on mods go. Of course, cylinder heads can be reworked, but hardly a cheap exercise for the gains. Superchargers have also been the logical step to take, in terms of enhancing V6 models.

    I'm no stranger to engine conversions, I was the first in the UK back in '95 to transplant an RS2 motor and 6-speed tranny into a type 85 Coupe quattro (B2). This car went on to win events, bringing home trophies from the drag strips in '98 and '99, where she came first in her class.

    My current car, a '96 B5 A4 2,6L Quattro Sport was my first foray into the "newer generation" of Audi's, back in 2007. I had a clear idea what I wanted from the car, B5 RS4 looks in a sedan bodyshell, using OEM parts, as well as performance to match.

    How does one make a 2,6L 12V perform to any decent standard? With 150hp, it was the same output as a 1,8T, but heavier, so performance was far from sparkling.

    The V8 concept was born.

    I've always been a fan of large capacity engines, especially the V8. The linear grunt from low RPM is something you just don't get from a similar-powered 1,8T, it becomes more obvious if you track your car, and find yourself stirring the cogs more with the smaller engines.

    My objective was to create a truly unique concepe, without destroying the external looks of the B5, or cutting / bending the secondary firewall. It had to fit, and look factory.

    There have been a few V8 conversions into B5's I'm aware of:

    Oettinger B5 V8 (1998).
    Audi UK design study B5 V8 (1998).
    Canadian B5 V8 (using 079 series chain-driven V8).
    Greek B5 V8 (using RS6 motor)

    T date, the Greek car is not completed, and the pictures below will show you why:





    The RS6 has a unique block, though it's still an 077 series engine. The block was designed solely for auto trans, and shares its massive torque converter with the VW Phaeton W8. Bolting it to a manual 01A / 01E requires a thick adapter plate, pushing the engine further forward. New fenders, bumper, grille and hood are required for this - not recommended!

    The Canadian car was a much better effort, and looks fairly neat:



    The Audi UK car was a design study, and a test bed for the forth coming V8-engined B6 S4. Interesting to note, the car used was a ,98 model S4, registered in 2001. It was built by Audi's then newly acquired subsidiary, Cosworth Technology, now called Mahle Powertrain. A clean install, though the nose of the car was severely compromised, and ruins the B5 clean lines. Grille, hood, bumper give it a "TT-look". Notice the front panel has been chopped and moved forwards, joined crudely with metal plate:

    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  2. #2
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    Default

    This is my own car. The only part cut was the inner shrouds for the electric and mechanical fans, moving the fans to the outside:

    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  3. #3

    Default

    Very impressive Siena.
    Would love to see some more pics of your car and look forward to watching the build of your mates car.
    MY14 A4 2.0Tq S-Tronic S-Line - Phantom Black

    Past Audi's
    MY10 S3 Sportback - Revo 2+, Bilstein PSS10 (sadly missed)
    MY07 A3 2.0T Sportback
    B6 2.0
    B5 1.8

  4. #4
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    Default What Audi V8's Will Fit?

    There are quite a few options, as to which Audi V8 block you choose to use:

    Audi V8 077 series (1st generation with distributors, 3,6 / 4,2L 32V).
    Audi A8 077 series (2nd generation with coil-on-plug, 3,7 / 4,2L 32V).
    Audi S8 077 series (2nd generation with coil-on-plug, 4,2L 32V).
    Audi A8 077 series (3rd generation with coil-on-plug, 3,7 / 4,2L 40V).
    Audi S8 077 series (3rd generation with coil-on-plug, 4,2L 40V).
    Audi S4 079 series (4th generation with coil-on-plug, 4,2L 40V).
    Audi RS4 079 series (4th generation with coil-on-plug, FSI tech, 4,2L 40V).

    In this write-up though, I shall be concentrating mainly on the 077 series 32 and 40V motors, due to their availability. I would not use the B7 RS4 block as a candidate, as the FSI technology integration with the B5 chassis will be a nightmare, unless you're able to find a stand alone that will run it to its full potential.
    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  5. #5
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    Default What Engine Management - Stock Or Stand Alone?

    In terms of which route you choose for V8 / B5 wiring integration, there are several, and most will choose due to personal preference, costs, flexibility etc.

    The OEM wiring harness, and ECU can be used. You will of course, need to reconfigure the connectors to plug into your chassis. One thing I'd advice, if retaining the OEM ECU / harness, is to choose the V8 that best matches your chassis.

    For instance, if your base car is drive-by-wire (1,8T or V6 30V) then it would be best to use a 40V V8 as your donor. The plugs that connect the engine harness to the main car harness (under the ECU in the waterproof box in scuttle) are the same, with the smaller pins. You will need to have the immobilliser decoded via VAG-COM. As long as the connections are all done correctly, your OBDII port will still interface your engine with VAG-COM or similar.

    If your car is non DBW, 1,8T or V6, then the 32V engine is the best to go for. You are not bound to use the same generation of V8 that best matches your current configuration, it just makes it simpler to do so.

    If you choose to go stand alone, then there are no immobilliser issues to contend with. It is a much more flexible system, especially if you intend to modify the engine further in the future, i.e camshafts, injectors and / or forced induction. I chose VEMS for my own car, though there are several aftermarket management systems that will work the V8 a treat.

    If you choose to go stand alone, make sure it's compatible to your state laws, as far as emissions go.
    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  6. #6
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    Default

    That is one sensational conversion...absolutely perfect, I agree more pictures need to be put up. Awesome job!
    Imola '03 A4 1.8TQM

    :: Motoza Performance Tuned on e85 :: Frankenturbo F21-L :: 750cc Injectors :: Milltek Exhaust :: ER Sport FMIC :: Sachs Race Engineering DM Clutch Kit ::

  7. #7
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    Default

    Once you've decided on what engine to use, then you can look around for likely candidates to suit your needs, and finances.

    I'll start from the cheapest.

    Audi V8 3,6L 32V (PT).

    This engine from the original Audi V8 will undoubtedly be the cheapest here. It yielded 250hp in stock form, and while not the most powerful option, it would be best suited to a FWD car, where traction could become an issue.

    My only reservation though is the twin distributors would foul the secondary firewall. I do not advocate sutting into this seemingly flimsy piece of metal - it may not look structural, but it is. Of course, this can be converted to coil-on-plug, and either run on a later harness and ECU from an A8, or stand alone. These will add to the cost.

    Typical price for a PT engine with accessories, harness and ECU? £300 - £500.

    Audi V8 4,2L 32V (ABH).

    This is mechanically similar to the 3,6L 32V, but yielded 280hp.

    The same twin distributor set-up as the PT, so the same comments should be taken on-board.

    Typical prices for the ABH engine with accessories, harness and ECU? £450 - £600.

    Audi S8 3,7L 32V (AEW).

    The smaller sister to the 4,2L ABZ, this motor produced 230hp stock. It is a coil-on-plug set-up, so suited to the B5 chassis without molesting the secondary firewall. With the lower power output, ideally suited to FWD models.

    Typical prices for the AEV engine, with accessories, harness and ECU?
    £500 - £700.

    Audi A8 4,2L 32V (ABZ).

    This was the first Audi V8 to run coil packs, dimensions are the same as the PT / ABH, but the absence of didtributors means it will fit the B5 chassis without compromising the secondary firewall. Power output is 300hp in stock form.

    Typical prices for the ABZ engine, with accessories, harness and ECU?
    £500 - £750.

    Audi S8 4,2L 32V (AHC).

    This was a heavilly reworked version of the successful ABZ, and was fitted to European S8 models. It produces 340hp in stock form, and while it may look similar to regular ABZ models, it was verry different in character.

    It had revised camshafts, and the redline was 7,000rpm, pretty decent for a V8 of that era. The exhaust tappets were hydraulic, the pistons were different, giving a higher CR (11,5:1), the intake plenum and throttle body were larger, injectors were larger, and of course, the ECU software was modified to cope.

    The AHC engine is less common in junkyards than the ABZ it's based on, so commands higher prices.

    Typical prices for the AHC engine, with accessories, harness and ECU?
    £650 - £900.

    Audi A8 3,7L 40V (AKC / AQG).

    This was the smaller displacement V8 fitted to the A8, in both FWD and quattro guise.

    Coil-on-plug set-up, and drive-by-wire and VVT makes this ideal for later cars. Power output went up to 260hp, a 30hp increase over the similar displacement 32V. The increase was due more to revised ECU and cam timing, rather than the extra valve per cylinder.

    Ideal for both FWD and quattro B5 chassis.

    Typical prices for the AKC / AQG engine, with accessories, harness and ECU?
    £550 - £850.

    Audi A8 4,2L 40V (AQF / AUW).

    The larger displacement version of the AKC motor, this produced 310hp. The same coil-on-plug set-up, DBW and VVT makes this ideal for later DBW B5's.

    Higher output means it's also more suited to quattro models.

    Typical prices for the AQF / AUW engine, with accessories, harness and ECU?
    £650 - £850.

    Audi S8 4,2L 40V (AVP).

    This was the final revised V8 fitted to European S8 models.

    It produced 360hp in stock form, featured coil-on-plug, DBW and VVT. It was only available for 2 years, so not as plentiful as earlier versions. Not recommended for FWD B5 cars, due to higher output.

    Typical prices for the AVP engine, with accessories, harness and ECU?
    £700 - £1,100.
    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  8. #8
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    Default Managing It All.

    As I stated previously, besides the OEM ECU, there are several aftermarket stand alones that will run your choice of engine. Prices will vary from different suppliers, but here are a few:

    OEM Bosch Motronic: £free, comes with engine.

    Megasquirt: £300 - £600.
    VEMS: £600 - £950.
    DTA: £500 - £830.
    Emerald: £500 - £830.
    Haltech: £?
    Motech: £?

    Again, these prices can be higher or lower, dependent on add-ons opted for, i.e wide band, knock sensing, launch control, anti-lag etc. If you buy these in kit form, the costs will be lower still, but you'll need to be confident with electronics.

    Whichever option bar OEM you go for, the wiring harness will need to be configured to match your chosen ECU. Most stockists will modify your OEM harness for a set fee. I only have experience with VEMS, and can supply the ECU with your own harness modified to be virtually plug-and-play to your B5.

    Cost of both VEMS and harness is £1,400.
    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  9. #9
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    Default What Transmission?

    Now, UK Audi V8, A8 and S8 were auto tranny only, 4 or 5 speed tiptronic.

    When I did my install, I ended up going custom on a flywheel, as all cars in junkyards were all auto.

    My flywheels are 7,2kg single-mass units, and are designed to accept either B5 S4 or RS4 clutch. Both clutches are the same, only the pressure plates are different, with the RS4 unit having a higher clamping rate.

    These flywheels and clutches are compatible with the following manual trans:

    012 5-speed FWD.
    01A 5-speed quattro.
    01E 6-speed FWD.
    01E 6-speed quattro.
    01X 6-speed quattro.

    I won't go into prices for 5-speed manuals, as most will have these in their cars already.

    01E 6-speed FWD: £300 - £450.
    01E 6-speed quattro: £400 - £650.
    01X 6-speed quattro: £500 - £675.

    Flywheel: £257.
    B5 S4 clutch (3-piece): £295.
    B5 RS4 clutch (3-piece): £310.

    These flywheels are designed to accept OEM spigot bearings, and these cost:
    £34.

    If converting a 5-speed quattro to 6-speed, you'll need:

    S4 propshaft.
    S4 rear differential (does not apply to 2,6L 12V models, as rear diff is already the right ratio of 411:1).
    V6 subframe (only applicable to I4 models).
    6-speed trans mounts (usually comes with tranny).
    6-speed shift lever and linkage.
    FWD V6 or 1,8T driveshafts (108mm inner CV's to match 6-speed flanges).

    If converting a 5-speed FWD to 6-speed, you'll need:

    V6 subframe (only applicable to I4 models).
    6-speed trans mounts (usually comes with tranny).
    6-speed shift lever and linkage.

    Typical costs are:

    S4 propshaft: £60 - £100.
    S4 rear differential: £70 - £120.
    V6 subframe: £30 - £65.
    6-speed tranny mounts: £35 - £60 a pair.
    6-speed shift lever and linkage: £50 - £110.
    FWD V6 / 1,8T driveshafts: £45 - £95 a pair.
    2003 Audi B6 A4 Quattro Sport Avant, 3.0 | 6-Speed Manual Swap | BOSE | Rear PDC | Factory Votex Kit | OEM B6 S4 Black Optic Grille | Rear Tints | Black Leather | Cruise | H&R Spacers 12/15mm Front / Rear


    B6 420-TS Avant, 4.2 V8 40V BiTurbo, B6/7 "RS4" OEM Widebody Coming Soon.


  10. #10

    Default

    very interesting thread thus far!!!!

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