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Thread: New Australian Car experience sharing platform

  1. #1

    Default New Australian Car experience sharing platform

    Hi all,

    I'll start by saying this is an idea sharing exercise completely for feedback and this is not a sales post. Ok, with that out of the way.

    I've been in the Australian sports car owning community for many years, 15 I guess, and been around the car clubs and forums a lot in that time. For a long while I've been thinking, 'I wish there was a safe and controlled way to share the experience of what my car is like to drive, and also be able to borrow a friend/fellow car club or forums car, again in a safe and controlled easy way'.

    I had this idea and finally put some research time in along with a fellow car fan, into what was possible using our IT backgrounds and love of cars.

    So an idea (and that's all it is at this stage) was born.

    Like with all ideas, you need to socialise it for feedback, what are the negatives? is this even a good idea at all?

    This is where we would really value you, the fellow petrol-head car forum member for your valued input.

    Once again this is not a sales tactic, we're just looking for honest (don't sugar coat it) feedback.

    We've setup a quick website to just explain the What, Why, How here: http://www.beddysblog.com/carexpsharing/

    What do you think? just reply,
    Regards Mark Bedford

    2007 Blue Audi RS4 Avant
    Miltek non-resonated inc valves exhaust
    (no sunroof but tick the carbon ceramics baby :) )

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbedford View Post
    Hi all,

    .....................'I wish there was a safe and controlled way to share the experience of what my car is like to drive,

    ..............................and also be able to borrow a friend/fellow car club or forums car, again in a safe and controlled easy way'.

    ..................................

    Like with all ideas, you need to socialise it for feedback, what are the negatives? is this even a good idea at all?

    ...................................
    Instant feedback in the sense that I'm totally removed from the concept.

    1. Doesn't the / a forum do just this. Start a thread and people with something to say post.
    2. This won't fly for all. Insurance issues, lend a "special" car to someone you may not know, etc. Amongst the older versions, many parts are NLA and as we've seen on here, even a minor bingle can write a car off through no replacement parts being available. While I have no real issues with an RS owner of the same vehicle taking mine for a spin, it would be on the condition of a straight swap if there was an problem arising, but that is not possible in most cases. Different issue with new cars as they are at least replaceable.
    3. Most but not all are "socialized". Personally I don't have the need and on that basis it would be another example of dividing the community. For mine there is still no better way of talking cars than face to face. Coffee morning or a spin and you get a drive as part of the package.

    While I can understand the concept, reading the website reinforces in my mind that the car owner is holding the risk card, you can't turn back the clock. Most of the above can be achieved through a sports car rental or indeed a test drive from a dealer. If you're serious about buying a premium sports car then you can afford the rental for 24 hours.

    Fully appreciate that some owners of the cars in question see them as transient acquisitions and would be quite happy to participate. Others may be a bit more passionate and you can see where this leads.

    You may be on a winner and if so, good luck. It isn't for me.
    Last edited by IchBautAuto; February 21st, 2020 at 09:49 AM.
    C5 RS6: Sportec, Milltek & Wagner -- B5 RS4 : tastefully modified -- Audi 1.8 quattro 132 Kw -- UNIMOG 404 TLF8

  3. #3

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    Although only 1 reply, thank you for reply on this topic, we've been watching and discussing internally with great interest. It seems the common response across the car enthusiast forums we asked the question to, is that the option of a 'car experience sharing club' where you need to own a sports car to be in the club, you share it to gain access to others sports cars in the club, is the chosen model where people are more comfortable as others have 'skin in the game'.


    This does make a lot of sense, you have to have your own car in the system to build a trust, treat others cars as you would want yours treated. Full cover extensive insurance during the 'sharing time' and not affecting your own insurance is of course a important requirement too. Allowing renters to just pay money to come in and rent your car is a real turn off is apparent.


    We are making a lot of phone calls to various Australian insurers to talk about insurance models that may work, there are a lot of learnings from similar sharing models like 'Turo' here, but they dont operate their insurance model in Australia. We will report back when we have more findings, this may be the trickiest area.


    Also we have created a FAQ page which answer some of the commonly asked questions: http://www.beddysblog.com/carexpsharing/faq/


    Thank you.
    Regards Mark Bedford

    2007 Blue Audi RS4 Avant
    Miltek non-resonated inc valves exhaust
    (no sunroof but tick the carbon ceramics baby :) )

  4. #4
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    Default

    I can see insurance issues being a potential complication.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbedford View Post
    Although only 1 reply, thank you for reply on this topic, we've been watching and discussing internally with great interest. It seems the common response across the car enthusiast forums we asked the question to, is that the option of a 'car experience sharing club' where you need to own a sports car to be in the club, you share it to gain access to others sports cars in the club, is the chosen model where people are more comfortable as others have 'skin in the game'.


    This does make a lot of sense, you have to have your own car in the system to build a trust, treat others cars as you would want yours treated. Full cover extensive insurance during the 'sharing time' and not affecting your own insurance is of course a important requirement too. Allowing renters to just pay money to come in and rent your car is a real turn off is apparent.


    We are making a lot of phone calls to various Australian insurers to talk about insurance models that may work, there are a lot of learnings from similar sharing models like 'Turo' here, but they dont operate their insurance model in Australia. We will report back when we have more findings, this may be the trickiest area.


    Also we have created a FAQ page which answer some of the commonly asked questions: http://www.beddysblog.com/carexpsharing/faq/


    Thank you.
    Hmm insufficelient skin in the game is the killer. Your term or someone elses. Just a view but very little chance of covering insurance. What entity owns the policy. Are you going to name everyone in the scheme and will premiums will be based the loweest denominater, ( highest risk for that car) I.e an 17year old p plater? where no power to weight restrictions?

    Then assuming you get that covered what if some turkey fries my clutch. What's the recourse besides all care and no responsibility. What happens when some turkey does a third gear pull at red line and records a type 2 over rev event on my ecu. Car looks good, until the ecu is hooked up 2 months down the track. Which turkey out of 15 drivers did that as administrator whats my recousrse. Theres 5 to 10k potential price drop on the resale to a keen eyed buyer who may just not look at the car with a type 2 over rev incident. As noted arentyou just better rocking up to a dealer, test drive the car and then at best for the experience you at least ask so what is the changeover cost based on a tradein of that over their.


    May I suggest if you are keen to pursue this, this is akin to air bnb for swimming pools but theres no revenue. IOU the use of my pool because I used yours What are all the T's and C's around use and insurance with that scheme...

    per your web site. Skin in the game is not a 15k annual sub as part of ownership. Skin in the game is a kick in of say what you would pay to buy one of the cars being shared.that you have a part ownership in.
    Last edited by smit2100; February 26th, 2020 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbedford View Post
    .................................................. ..
    Also we have created a FAQ page which answer some of the commonly asked questions: http://www.beddysblog.com/carexpsharing/faq/

    Thank you.
    I've read the FAQ. A parallel arrangement is a group of "mates" in a car club where people swap cars on sections of a drive. There is no insurance and no costs in that model and clearly it has it's own issues. Also, in place of the electronic recorder you may get the Mrs who has a vested interest in the car not being abused. I note that you have put this out in many Forums so you'll capture a wide spectrum of comment. It might be interesting to see how various forum approach this issue.

    On here, the respondents have been 3, 2 of whom have very similar views. My own view is that the lack of response says something about the interest of members on this Forum. That may also be a reason why there are so few Audi clubs in Australia, a lack of passion or commitment past where the shipping preservative is washed from the paint.

    Perhaps you can at some time allude to how Porsche, BMW or Ferrari club members respond for example. Off topic but it would throw some light on different approaches by marque to this concept.
    C5 RS6: Sportec, Milltek & Wagner -- B5 RS4 : tastefully modified -- Audi 1.8 quattro 132 Kw -- UNIMOG 404 TLF8

  7. #7

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    I read all the responses on one of the porsche forums. Zero love. Reckon the concept of skin in the game was coined from one of my posts. I used that to sum up the responses. I have been generous with my keys at P car meets. I don't take up counter offers to drive their cars as I might want one. Ha ha. SeriousIy, it doesnt interest me. I
    think manny P car OWNERS whose ECU's track over revs go to big lengths to buy a car with minimal type 2 overs and even on a track and driving the cars at the limits they do so without recording over revs. So there's a huge trust issue handing your keys over to someone whereby I may drive someone's car at 7/10's and respect their car whereas someone drives yourcar ( only need one turkey) at 9/10 to 10/10's and something goes bang or records an over rev (on resale some buyers see certain over rev events and are not interested and move onto the next car) Plus I reckon a fair few p car owners with cars over 6 figures have had a few different cars in the past and aren't interested in other marks ( experiences in other cars dont compare.. Also they seem to have access to be able to get a drive in perhaps a different era of p car t / gt version. As you note some just go tyre kicking. Fyi. I had 4 guys drive my car at a cars and coffee. Ran 100% on all getting the rear a bit out of whack and wheel spinning when changing from 3rd to 4th and all said geeze I was'nt even fully on it ( I'm in the passenger seat) and know when that happens keep the foot planted to straighten it up as their is so much grip and rear engine does change the driving dynamics and amount of . In the wrong hands / no oversight and driving at 9/10 after a rush of blood and a quick spin based on driving it like you stole it but that equals not with my car.( not worth it) It took me 2 years to find my car, and I wouldn't hand over the keys to someone I haven't eye balled and had a chance to form a view on them based on first impressions.
    Last edited by smit2100; February 27th, 2020 at 11:18 PM.

  8. #8

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    Hi all,

    Thanks very much for all the replies! We've decided to close this idea off and not work on it further. Most of the feedback pivoted the idea to make it a car sharing club between members only and not allowing those to pay cash to enter into the system and hire cars. The thinking was to have 'skin in the game', when you put your own car in the clubs circle for hire you'll be more respectful to others cars. Having said that 2 main hurdles came up we cannot safely get over to warrant pursuing this any further:

    1) People are very protective of their sports cars, they love and cherish them, most respondents said they would only lend their car to the close friends and family only, no one else, except for a generous few. This is slightly strange as the boat sharing clubs which are similar sharing high worth personal items, people are ok to share around in a sharing club, but people must view cars differently to boats.

    2) We couldn't find any insurer that would under right our proposal, regardless if it was a closed club type arrangement and if if we put data loggers in the cars in case of accidents and to stop car abuse. We spoke to many brokers and insurance companies, all the ones you would have heard of, Shannons e.t.c and the same ones underwriting CarNextDoor and other non sports car sharing insurance underwriters.

    Anyway we thank you all for your replies and taking the time. Cheers all.
    Regards Mark Bedford

    2007 Blue Audi RS4 Avant
    Miltek non-resonated inc valves exhaust
    (no sunroof but tick the carbon ceramics baby :) )

  9. #9

    Default

    Thanks for asking. It may not have been the answer you wished for but at least I hope it laid out how some of us feel. Cars and boats have a few things in common including the ability to make a small fortune (from a large one) but my Boat experience is restricted to serious ones that go bang in the night rather than those gin palaces made for pleasure.

    We all respect the generous few, it's a worthy place to be but I suspect that Insurance companies agree that many people have less respect for other peoples treasures than they used to. Hot / exclusive / rare / unusual Cars bring out some things in some people that negate the respect that should be shown. For older and restored cars, I don't even think that $ are the big driver, it's the thousands of hours put in to get them up to your standard that can never be recovered.
    C5 RS6: Sportec, Milltek & Wagner -- B5 RS4 : tastefully modified -- Audi 1.8 quattro 132 Kw -- UNIMOG 404 TLF8

  10. #10

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    For what it's worth, most of the boat 'sharing' schemes I've been around (and indeed aircraft sharing as well) are fractional ownership schemes where each member buys an equal (and significant) share of the asset. You're typically talking about schemes where your 10% share will set you back $500K+ for a Sydney Harbour cruiser and $5M+ for a share in a reasonable range private jet.


    In addition to the buy-in cost those co-owners contribute annually to a maintenance, repair and insurance fund to ensure the upkeep of the boat/plane. As a result every member of the scheme is equally invested in ensuring the asset is cared for and treated with respect when it's their turn to use it. People with that degree of 'skin in the game' will behave very differently to someone who has thrown down a token amount to use the asset for a very short period.


    The only 'car-club' schemes I've seen with any degree of success either work with a similar fractional ownership model, where the only people who drive the car are part-owners of that car, or businesses that operate like fancy car rental agencies (just with nicer cars and membership fees rather than ad-hoc rental agreements). Take a look at something like Auto Vivendi in the UK, where 1000 miles of annual usage across their fleet starts at 13,500GBP (around $27K AUD). https://www.autovivendi.com/wp-conte...rship-2020.pdf if you're interested in more details.

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